The Inclusive Classroom Podcast – episode 3

Jules Daulby interviews Jarlath O’Brien, Professor Linda Graham and Dr Gillett-Swan.

Episode 3 is Professor Graham and Dr Gillett-Swan discussing the ‘other 29’.

I ask “how can we find a common ground with those who campaign for the other 29?”.

Linda – “it is a powerful argument but based on assumption that the other 29 are happy as well.”  ….”They may feel same disempowerment but have better self-regulation.”

We found in our research that students often empathised with the kids who were not coping…”

And some found they were getting into trouble because they would stick up for other kids in moments such as others not being allowed to go to the toilet.

Linda raises the the current trend for punitive ‘one size fits all‘ and ‘we just have to be tough‘, coming from the US Charter schools. ‘The broken windows concept – if you sweat the small stuff then the big stuff won’t happen.’

Which kids are you talking about?

The application of a consequence does nothing for those without self-regulation.” Professor Graham.

“Simple tips and tricks don’t work with children who don’t have the self-regulation skills to be able to think of the consequences before they act. So they end up in PRUs where staff understand them. But everybody should be able to figure out what to do with that kind of kid – it’s not intentional.” 

‘Behaviour toolkit, if simple will not work for ‘those kids’.

Dr Jenna Gillett-Swan – ‘Iis the ‘other 29’ an adult created issue?

It’s convention on the rights of the child – not children. Rights are afforded to the individual.  What do the students actually think? You’re campaigning for other 29 but have you asked them?And then there’s the fear it could happen to them – today it doesn’t but could they be ‘the one’ next time?”

Professor Linda Graham – “…the punitive control culture – in some of the more control orientated schools – I don’t think they know what the 29 think.”

these disadvantaged kids we spoke to in our research – who would say please and thank you, would say pardon.  They were pretty good kids.  The other interesting thing that I want more teachers to know is that ‘these kids understand that job of the teacher is hard, they know they’re not just the one.  These kids talk about the other 7/800. Some maybe with resentment but often with understanding. I wish we had a system with more respect for student voice.  They’re the biggest stakeholders – I want a kids’ union – no-one ever hears from them”.  

“In school belonging surveys – means are pretty low.  The other 29 aren’t enamoured with school either.  The arbitrariness of control seems to be a factor – a lack of respect.  They want to treated with decency.”

“Do you explain why you’re saying no?  Teachers have power and it’s interpreted by students ‘as you like them more than you like me?”

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